Mick I agree with your post on check 6, here is a forum for discussion!!
You cannot have black without white.
It would be very boring otherwise.

Seems to be a double-edge sword.. 'old skins v new models'. Increasingly, we must chose either between meticulously crafted skins, or painstakingly resculpted 3D models.. and that's if we even have a choice. Often times we can't have both. And unfortunately for skinners, it's always the skins that have to catch up with the new models, unless we want to maintain an older version of the sim. And unfortunately for the end-user, many of the original skinners of those classic skins we all know and love, are either no longer painting or they simply don't have time to make refinements whenever a revised model is released. Not only that, but who wants to keep rebuilding templates for the same aircraft, over and over and over again?

For those who may not be familiar with skinning, I'll try to offer a little insight. Like many, I'm one of those types who absolutely hates doing the same chore twice. If it's something enjoyable, no problem; but if it's work related, forget about it.. I'd rather do it right the first time and move on. And to me, template-building is a chore; but it's a necessary chore if I want to proceed to the fun part, which is skinning.

Like some others, I've already dealt with model revisions a couple of times, albeit with the modded version of the sim. Although the same situation can apply to the stock version as well. First it was the Ohka; shortly after building a new template and publishing the skins, a supposedly 'new & improved' version was released and was included in one of the all-inclusive mod packages. This would not have been so bad, but none of my skins would display properly on the revised model.. even though they were used in screenshots on the creator/s website. Not only that, but the revised model was not finished; the canopy glazing is deformed, tail assembly and fuselage have some 3D issues.. to me, it was not worth adapting my template to make skins for it.. at least not until the model could be properly finished.

Then came the Texan mod; but the great thing was that all of my old 'SBD hacks' (and there were a lot of them) would still fit. This was followed by an improved Texan mod with ADF football and sliding canopy, plus an SNJ version, then a Harvard version; the previous skins still fit and the only thing I revised was the additon of a shadow for the ADF equipped versions, and modifying the tailhook textures accordingly. The came a new version with even more 3D refinements. It's actually quite an improvement, as it got rid of the SBD's tail filet, although there's currently only an ADF version which somewhat limits the use of historical skins.. for example, it's a bit difficult to simulate an NA-57 or BT series, when there's an ADF football protruding from the top of the aft fuselage. But the biggest problem, is that none of my previous skins will display properly on the latest model; the engine texture is off-center, there's no texture on the cowl scoop, and a couple other minor issues I can't recall at the moment. But after assessing the 'damage', I decided the best course of action would be to build a new template from the ground up. I'd been meaning to do that anyway with the old Texan mod. But here's the rub; how many more times is the model going to change in the meantime? ..will someone eventually revise the wing shape? ..will we ever see a BT version with fixed landing gear? ..will we eventually get a dedicated model that does not rely on the SBD? ..Do I really want to invest all that effort into a new template that may become obsolete before it's finished?

And those are just a couple of examples of our 'supporting actors'. Outside of a few offerings from 'here & there' over the years, I think I'm the only one who's actually specialized in these two airframes; so the impact has mostly affected only myself, and those who might like my old Texan skins. Other than that, I've just kept my mouth shut and focused on skinning Avias. But once we consider the amount of skinners for the Mustangs, 109's & 190's, Spitfires, and such; any change to the modelling for those airframes will likely have quite an impact accross the community. Just have a look at the downloads section of practically any IL2 site, and see what the fattest folders are, and I'm sure you'll see a variety of skinners involved. As mentioned in previous posts, we've already seen the impact to some extent with the Ju88, the A6M, Hs129, and a few others.

I think as skinners select their future projects, a model's 'potential longevity' will increasingly become a primary consideration. And if enough models undergo changes with each new version of the sim, then good luck finding anyone who's willing to make skins for them. Eventually, skinners may even lose their desire to build templates or make skins at all, and start doing screenshots or something. No skinner wants to dedicate all that time and research toward something that could change at a moment's notice.. I certainly don't anyway.

But I guess that's one of the pitfalls of an 'update-able' or 'mod-able' sim. It's great that we can enjoy constant improvements; but it can be a real pain sometimes, trying to keep up with it all. And don't even get me started with trying to maintain multiple installations.

And this is just the skinning aspect. I can only imagine how it must be for those who mod the core sim everytime a new 'official' version is released.

Btw Chris, I know the P-47's are important, but I'm still lobbying for that hot air balloon from the Wizard of OZ.. I think it would add a great deal of immersion to the Slovakia map, what with the castles and all. Just kidding of course; I know exactly what you meant and totally agree.. the major players should get priority.

But then, I just paint airplanes

I seem to have touched a nerve here, I'm pleased to see so many in agreement. It seems like we would all like to see much the same things. Improvements to the visual aspect of the core IL2 maps to raise them to the standard of the Slovakia maps including small, work a day details such as wind-socks etc., improvements to existing aircraft which do not invalidate the superb back catalogue of skins. These improvements to include better representation of the hitting power of the main armament and more accurate representation of the various ancilary weapons fits for each A.C. And personaly I should like to see all cockpits brought up to the visual standard of the J8A/Gladiator, which from the early days of IL2 has shown what can be achieved within the limitations of the basic game.

I know that many ,if not most, of these improvements exist as Mods, but as Armin points out, there are issues of inter-mod compatability which make using them tedious and often confusing.

Sorry to high-jack your thread HB but it really is annoying when TD casualy invalidate the work of exellent skinners, like yourself and others here.

Wingco

Sorry to high-jack your thread HB but it really is annoying when TD casualy invalidate the work of exellent skinners, like yourself and others here.

Wingco

No worries, I'm not bothered if a thread goes off-topic so long as it stays amicable as it has here.

As for the P-40N, I've done some more weathering and have had a go at doing some blotching. While looking online for photos showing blotches on P-40Ns it seemed to me that, while not rare, it was the exception rather than the rule... at least as far I could tell.
Some screenies:




HB

Hi guys,
Just a quick update. I spent a productive weekend working on this template, most of which isn't very visible in this screenie (tweaking some lighting, doing the stencils etc.) but some, namely experimenting with nose art and different splotching patterns, is.



Cheers,

HB

Great work HB!

I never noticed the shadows from the canopy frame, nice touch. And I think it's good when folks don't notice things like this right away, as that usually means that you've achieved the correct intensity and everything appears naturally to the eye. I also like that you are doing individual cammo patterns for each skin; it's one of those things that adds an extra degree of realism.

Looking forward to your progress.

Veery nice indeed. Sharp nose art I like it. Looking forward to see skins from this template

Cheers guys, glad you like it
Next up is to tweak or redo the mech/internals which may have to wait for the weekend, but once that's done then I can start putting out some finished skins.

HB

I seem to have touched a nerve here, I'm pleased to see so many in agreement. It seems like we would all like to see much the same things. Improvements to the visual aspect of the core IL2 maps to raise them to the standard of the Slovakia maps including small, work a day details such as wind-socks etc., improvements to existing aircraft which do not invalidate the superb back catalogue of skins. These improvements to include better representation of the hitting power of the main armament and more accurate representation of the various ancilary weapons fits for each A.C. And personaly I should like to see all cockpits brought up to the visual standard of the J8A/Gladiator, which from the early days of IL2 has shown what can be achieved within the limitations of the basic game.

I know that many ,if not most, of these improvements exist as Mods, but as Armin points out, there are issues of inter-mod compatability which make using them tedious and often confusing.

Sorry to high-jack your thread HB but it really is annoying when TD casualy invalidate the work of exellent skinners, like yourself and others here.

Wingco

Wingco

I realize I'm new to this community (Axis and Allies) but I'm not new to IL-2 and I do some third party work for TD and I felt I had to step in and at least offer something up in return.

Although I'm not a skinner or an experienced UV mapper, I have done both (poorly ), so I have something of an idea of what is involved with putting both together. The P-40E and M model that we have in IL-2 is very poorly done from an accuracy level and although I can't speak to it, I understand that the quality of the UV mapping was similarly poor. Someone can correct me on that second point.

I'm not sure if I should reveal names but one of the earlier P-40 skinning enthusiasts in the community is actually the fellow doing the project for the P-40 and trust me when I say that the conversation as to if making the old skin and UV mapping fit on the upgraded/new model was a very difficult one. It certainly wasn't done casually.

My hope is that although we're going to loose some very well done skins (one of my campaigns is going to need a do-over with the custom P-40 skins I used there) we're getting two upgraded models, probably several other P-40 Warhawk variants that we didn't have, and a better base template for people to work from in the first place. I realize it's not ideal.

Again I hope not to antagonize anyone here with any of this. I did want to offer an alternative viewpoint that this change was done with great pains. I also should point out that I'm not an official Team Daidalos member and can't profess to speak for them either.

And to get back on the original topic... stunning skinning work. That P-40 looks fantastically done! I realize it's still very much a WIP but it's looking great!

Looking very good HB! Like RJ pointed out, the canopy bar shades look great...it's a nice touch, since we currently aren't able to have dynamic lighting / shading in IL2 '46. You've noticed that a lot of us use simulated 3D effects on our templates...but I don't think any of us considered adding that effect. Kudos for being original! I'll be very interested to see your skins when it's completed. Ultimately, I hope you'll consider making your template public.

I'm not sure if the discussion about TD should be brought up again...however, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth. I see TD as an 'officially sanctioned' mod team by Oleg...they really aren't doing anything that modders like Claymore, Japancat or Anto haven't already done for various aircraft. I personally get annoyed when a new 3D model is released for a 'classic' IL2 aircraft, and others that are in dire need of a reworking (THE P-38...ALL MODELS) get passed over.

With that being said, I'm on the fence about the P40 remodel. While I don't look forward to re-building the template, I am excited to see the errors from the past corrected. The best solution I see is for TD to release the template used to create the default skins, so that skinners can begin supporting the new version within 48 hours of the 4.12 patch release. As a skinner, this is what I'd want to see happen...

Again, just my thinking on the matter.

@ Ice - Would you happen to be IceFire from M4T? If so...your Tempest campaign is still one of my favorites of all time.

Cheers,

KC